Tiffany Watt Smith is an award-winning writer, historian, professor, broadcaster and speaker and former theatre director who lives in London with novelist and actor Michael Hughes, and their two children. Her research focusses on the histories of emotions and gestures, and she is director of the Queen Mary Centre for the History of the Emotions and she has done a TED talk called ‘The History of Human Emotions. Her bestselling books, Schadenfreude and The Book Of Human Emotions, have been translated into a dozen languages. She recently released her book Bad Friend, and kindly jumped on a Zoom with us at 8pm her time.
Hi Tiffany! Why call your book Bad Friend?
Partly because women sometimes say is ‘I’m worried I’m a bad friend’. So I thought that phrase had a lot of salience.
I think the title makes it more interesting, because you wonder who is a bad friend, but do you worry that people might misinterpret the title?
I went back and forth about the title because I wanted it to be a book people could give to their friends. And the title might make that awkward! But I was interested in this binary between a ‘good friend’ and a ‘bad friend’. There’s this sense you can very easily become a bad friend, and there are so many versions of the bad friend – like the idea that the bad friend is envious and might steal your boyfriend.
Nowadays we realise that we won’t get a perfect romantic partner, so do we need to extend that lens to friendships?
Yeah, we know that romantic relationships and relationships with family members will be tricky and complicated, sometimes. But somehow with female friendship, that message doesn’t seem to have got across. So we could adjust our expectations and be more realistic. With idealising friendships, expectations can be suffocating and put pressure on us, so we might think we’re failing as a friend, or being a bad friend.
In the book, you’re extremely open about your friendships that ended, especially with Sofia. You felt you were to blame for that?
I was definitely behaving strange and I couldn’t explain why and I couldn’t articulate what was that was wrong. And that was really uncomfortable and difficult for her and, I would go home kind of in floods of tears, not understanding what was going on.
You met up with Liza and Sofia for the book. Did you ask them for permission to put them in the book?
Yes, they’re highly anonymized and I felt it was very important to get their permission. Friendship happens between two people, so one person can’t really hold the story of a friendship. I showed them drafts, and if they were unhappy about something, I changed it. Some friends said ‘it’s fine, I don’t really need to read it’, although they all did actually. Others wanted to be more interventionist. Either way, it was totally fine, writing about friends was the aspect I most worried about. But the process brought us together, especially with Sofia, because we had conversations that otherwise wouldn’t have happened. When friendships end in big meltdowns, you’ll likely try and avoid the person forever. So it was a gift to say ‘I’m doing this thing. How do you feel about it?’ Then we caught up and it was a delight, although I was very nervous. It was an opportunity to talk about the things I’d regretted and how I wished I’d behaved slightly differently. I told them about moments in the friendship that I’d found very difficult and they were surprised about that. We reached a mutual understanding. It was, weirdly, a healing process. But that was 15, 20 years ago. We can laugh about it now.
Your friendships seemed intense. It sounds like you had friend crushes, because you said you fell in love with Liza straight away, but also said maybe you fell in love with the person you wanted to be next?
Yeah. When I was younger I could get very lost inside of an intimate merged friendship. My identity got very tangled up with a friend’s identity. When you’re younger, malleable and trying to understand who you are and who you might be, friends represent these possibilities. Coming closer to a friend involved, at least for me, emulating them. Maybe they were doing the same with me. There was this merging, then later there’s a painful separation when you realise you’re going in different directions. In the book, I was interested in exploring that transition from these intimate friendships to learning the skill of what psychoanalysts called bonding without cloning. Being able to care about someone and being connected, but also being able to keep some separation and not needing to be the same.
You write you were drawn to people who lived their lives in extremes, who seemed fearless. You wanted to be more like that?
Yeah I was always interested – and probably still am – in people who seem to be taking risks, improvising or being adventurous. It gives you an expanded sense of possibility. Because there’s a version of life that is plotted out for you and it’s quite limited really, especially if you’re a woman. You have kids, maybe get married, try hard to be successful at your job and maybe buy a house. I felt that was boring and I wanted to have adventures.
Your friendships that were lost or drifted away – you thought you had more friend breakups than normal?
Yeah. I used to think ‘god, I’m the only one having this experience and it’s so shameful’. Now I know it’s normal that friendships change shape. I didn’t know people were having the same experience, because we just didn’t really talk about it. I wish I’d read a book like mine when I was younger, because I probably would have seen that it’s a journey, with a ‘friendship dip’ in your mid-to-late 20s.
Tell me about the friendship dip.
Studies show there’s a moment of separation, particularly geographical separation, from friends. The first transition I experienced was going from living with really close friends while at university, then suddenly we’re out in the world doing separate things in different places. That’s a very hard transition. You’ve gone from living in each other’s pockets to only seeing each other when you can organise it. This attrition of friendships is quite painful and isolating. In your 20s and 30s, often lots of energy goes into building a career. And later people think ‘that’s not quite enough, I want to see my friends. I think friendships get easier as you move into your 40s and 50s. That’s been my experience.
Do we also need to get comfortable with the idea that friendships ebb and flow, change and sometimes end?
Definitely. Friendships aren’t always going to be at the same pitch. At times you see each other more infrequently. Some friendships are naturally quite transient, but they’re very valuable. But we get caught up in this idea of the ideal BFF, so it’s hard for us to imagine the different ways in which we might be friends. These quick alliances, very practical friendships, and neighbourly friendships based in caring – they don’t have to be BFF romances. Transient friendships can be really valuable.
You forged a very practical friendship with new friend Meg as new mothers.
I’m still in touch with Meg, but she moved away and I did too. So we’re not in touch in the same way. But when we were relying on each other for childcare, company and help, we were very involved with each other’s day-to-day lives.
Sometimes friendships can diverge when one friend has kids and the other doesn’t, right?
Yes that’s incredibly hard. But I don’t think we have the right language to talk about it. I think we’re stuck in this idea of one friend being jealous of the other. The film Girlfriends delicately shows how heartbreaking that moment is for friends because it’s a real separation. They both feel rejected and like the other one is having the more interesting, authentic life.
With making new friends, my theory is that you need repeated unplanned interactions. Your thoughts?
Yeah, you definitely need repeated interactions. That’s interesting that you feel they need to be unplanned and maybe that’s right. We put quite a lot of emphasis on going out for coffee or a drink – face-to-face, sort of intimate things. Sometimes doing an activity together like walking or taking a class threads the friendship together. I’m really into joining groups. When I was younger, I would have thought it was a forced, crappy version of friendship whereas now I enjoy it. You’re interested in this shared endeavour. Sometimes friendships happen when you don’t notice. Then you’re suddenly sharing something, or calling them and think ‘oh we’ve actually become friends!’
Here’s where you can find a copy of TIffany’s new book, Bad Friend, as well as her bestselling books, Schadenfreude and The Book Of Human Emotions.
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