With today being Suffrage Day, we’re talking to Katie Bhreatnach (Ngāti Whakaue), the CEO of Global Women NZ: a collaboration of influential women leaders advocating for women’s equity and equality in Aotearoa for improved societal and economic growth. Resurfacing after laryngitis, Katie spoke to us about what Suffrage Day means to her, the gender pay gap falling, and particularly AI. With AI, have we let the genie out of the bottle – or could it be harnessed to create opportunities (not just challenges) in our careers? And what is the gender data gap?
Capsule: Hi Katie! What does Suffrage Day mean to you?
Katie: When I think of Suffrage Day, I first think about the women who led the world by getting New Zealand women the right to vote. That historic achievement was only made possible by trail-blazers including Kate Sheppard and Meri Te Tai Mangakāhia. They stepped into spaces that often resisted them, with the motivation to leave things better for those who would follow. So on Suffrage Day, I feel motivated by their courage and determination.
Between the falling gender pay gap, and the pay equity claims that were terminated, I have to wonder how New Zealand women are feeling right now!
I can’t speak for how New Zealand women feel, of course. But the women that I speak to have, I think, a mix of pride and determination. Pride in the progress made, but also a clear awareness that a lot of work still remains, especially for [better outcomes for] Māori and Pacific women. I get the sense that, while we know we’ve come far, we feel a shared responsibility to keep pushing further.
I know the gender pay gap for wāhine Māori, Pacific, ethnic, and disabled women is significantly higher than the national gender pay gap. It’s notable that the national gender pay gap dropped hugely from 8.2% in the June 2024 quarter to 5.2% in the June 2025 quarter. Why do you think that is? Is it something we can expect to keep dropping?
I’m not an economist, but I’ve spoken to smarter people than me about it. My reaction to the gender pay gap reduction is cautiously optimistic – because it’s encouraging to see median hourly earnings increase, including across ethnic groups. But what sets the net data could be job losses – particularly in retail and hospitality – of lower-paid roles, which disproportionately employ women, and particularly Māori and Pacific women. So I’ve got a ‘watching brief’: to look at the next quarterly data and see if the changes to the gender pay gap are sustainable gains driven by equity, or was it a sort of workplace reshuffling?
In response to the reduction, Minister for Women Nicola Grigg put it down to her introduction last year of the first government-backed gender pay gap calculator to support businesses to reduce their gender pay gap. But I imagine there were more factors?
I went to the minister’s roadshow where she rolled out the voluntary gender pay gap toolkit. What I do agree with her on is the emphasis on measurement. Our Champions for Change initiative is a network of business leaders who are really committed to inclusion, diversity and equity. Co-chair Roger Gray, also CEO of the Port of Auckland, laid down the wero to Champions For Change leaders to have the guts to measure the gender pay gap. And from my experience sitting around executive tables and around board tables, you do manage what you measure. That transparent measurement of the gender pay gap drives accountability and drives change conversations. But these aren’t necessarily easy challenges to fix with a single stroke. They require focus and intentionality. However I have quite a lot of optimism that the more we can get more people to start measuring and turning their mind to these, the better.
Should gender pay gap reporting be mandatory?
That’s an interesting question we’re looking at in terms of research and evidence.
The gutting of diversity, equity and inclusion programs in the States – is this filtering down to New Zealand at all?
Well, global trends, influences and debates influence New Zealand. We don’t live on an island. Whoops, we technically do! Our context is unique, but I think it would be naive for us to dismiss the possibility of any ‘creep’, from some of the activity happening abroad. But my personal experience of New Zealand business leaders don’t see DEI [programs] as a ‘nice to have’ when it’s convenient or when there’s an economic upcycle. They see it as ‘mission critical’ to successful business. If you don’t have an organisation that looks like the consumers, clients and customers you serve, you’re missing a trick.
How do you feel about the pay equity claims being terminated?
Following that, I came out saying that we [Global Women NZ] were disappointed that there wasn’t a process for women’s voices to be able to be heard. And I think Suffrage Day reinforces that – because women have fought hard for us to be able to be heard. So what we’d expect to see regarding pay equity is researched, evidence-based policy development.
Let’s talk about AI. When friends and I talk about AI, we say things like ‘this is terrible, AI might take my job, when will that happen, will I need to retrain’, etc. I think many women think of AI as a negative force in terms of its potential effect on our careers.
That’s a common sentiment I’ve heard. I think there being a fear of new technology – especially when its effects are uncertain – is not uncommon. I think that’s particularly the case for sectors that are vulnerable to automation like administration. So I think it’s important to acknowledge that natural reaction [of fear], then try to shift the conversation into what opportunities come with AI.
The UNESCO and OECD report ‘The Effects of AI on the Working Lives of Women’ says there’s currently no definitive answer about how AI will alter women’s jobs and much more research is needed. It does say the jobs less likely to be replaced are those where you really need to process complexity, utilise emotional intelligence, deep thoughtfulness and situational navigation. So that’s good news?
Yes. Some of the research says it’s more likely that AI will take away some aspects of your job, not your job completely. It will change elements of your job, so it’s about how do you work with that?
The report also said new technologies from AI could lead to the creation of new occupations. I think a lot of women would think, thank God there may be some positives.
Oh, I agree. When I started working life, we didn’t have mobile phones. I think as women we’re resilient, we’re adaptable and we don’t need to talk ourselves into feeling negatively about something, when there are also enormous opportunities presented [by AI]. The challenge is to make sure we best harness those opportunities as individuals and organisations – while being mindful of AI’s limitations and its bias, and ensure that the benefits aren’t outweighed by the negatives. We need organisations investing in that upskilling around using AI so they don’t leave anyone behind.
For women who will need to retrain, some will feel they’re too old to do so. I mean, I’m 45 and I would find it daunting. But I suppose we live, longer, we retire later…?
My honest answer is about the skills and the gifts we have to offer as women in the workplace. I wouldn’t have necessarily imagined I’d be in this job, age 48! I think as opportunities come and change happens, we pivot, we retrain, we’re constantly growing and evolving. Jacqueline Freeman [a media strategist], founder of the platform 58 & Unapologetic, has been speaking out on LinkedIn about ageism – particularly ageism for women. I heard her speak recently about research around the phenomenal, hugely valuable skills that older woman possess in the workplace, such as relational skills, and lived experience. So I think it’s about understanding the value you bring, then working on the things you need to. I think we can catastrophise a bit too much about AI. I see it as another change in a career or a lifetime of change, and there will inevitably be more ahead as well.
How do we get organisations to harness AI in a positive way?
Our Champions of Change summit earlier this year focused on this. Business leaders are focused on the opportunities of AI, but also mindful of the limitations. They understand, as part of their DNA, the importance of having a diverse, inclusive, engaged workforce. They’re not just saying ‘how can we reduce headcount or create efficiency?’. They’re going to also make sure we understand the risks, implications, challenges and limitations.
At the summit, the data we looked at showed us that women are statistically more likely than men to be disadvantaged by AI. And I’ve read that the kind of roles disproportionately held by men are likely to be disproportionately advantaged by AI. So there’s that double whammy. But a book I read recently – Invisible Women: Exposing Data Bias in a World Designed for Men by Caroline Criado Perez – blew my mind. She looks at things like how crash-test dummies were designed for men’s bodies, and how phones weren’t made to fit women’s hands. For instance, when medical research has been done leaning into the male anatomy, your research basically ignores half the population. That’s a gender data gap. So you’re going to have design flaws and leadership gaps if you’re looking at any data pool disproportionately designed by and for men. And Perez’s thesis is that, in order to close the gender data gap, we need to close the gender representation gap. Because the more women that are working in these different spaces, the more research, analysis and thinking will include the ‘other half’ of the population. I bring that up because I think it’s really critical to part of the discussion around AI. If our starting point with AI is data that has gender gaps, the outputs of AI will have an inherent bias. While the issue around the automation of jobs being disproportionately held by women is a real one, so is the fact that the data that AI is drawing from has unconscious bias on steroids.
How do we get more girls into STEM?
Attracting more girls and women into STEM careers and keeping them there is a really key focus – looking at the barriers and how can we change this. I’m proud to say my youngest daughter is a real STEM girl. She told me last week that she’d aced her maths exam and was going to start coding. I won’t be able to help much with her homework, but I’m delighted she can see a future for herself in that space.
You became Global Women NZ’s CEO in January. How did you feel about taking on this role and what do you see looking ahead?
I’d been on the board of Global Women for a couple of years and an active member for many years. While my commitment to the kaupapa isn’t new, it’s an exciting time to take on the role and a real honour. Over my career I’ve had the opportunity to work on the future of work, diversity, equity, inclusion, and growing great teams – and now I get to do that at scale, and work with phenomenal business leaders who are determined and focused on making a difference. It feels like an important time.
Image: Alexander Turnbull Library
