Turns out, the majority of people would rather talk about their sex life than their finances. So why is money talk so taboo? Should we be talking more about our finances, and if so, how? And what exactly is ‘loud budgeting’?
Welcome to our series about the cost-of-living crisis that is affecting SO MANY of us. We’ll be looking at such topics such as the toll it’s taking on our health, and women who have to choose between having a second child or buying a house. If there’s something you’d like us to cover, or if you’d be keen to be interviewed, please email us at hello@capsulenz.com! This week we’re looking at whether we talk openly about our finances or keep quiet about them.
Would you rather talk about your sex life or your finances with people (not counting your partner)? Well, I canvassed some women in some highly unscientific social-media polls. In one, 58% of respondents said they’d rather talk about their sex lives than their finances and 42% the other way round.
‘As women, we’ve been socialised not to talk about money.’
Is my tiny poll an anomaly? “Actually, this is a classic thing,” says Frances Cook, who is qualified as a financial adviser (specialising in investments), and is a podcaster, and a money commentator for broadcast news. “The vast majority of research shows that the vast majority of people prefer talking about sex rather than talking about their finances.”
Why? “Because there’s the notion that it’s rude to talk about finances. And because parts of you that are vulnerable are linked to finances, and [information about] how smart, successful and good you are. 100% across the spectrum, finances are used as a yardstick of how well you’re doing [at life]. I don’t think it’s a true yardstick to measure yourself by, just a really common cultural attitude. So these conversations can be fraught.”
For some people, talking about a less-than-ideal financial position (for example, salary, credit-card debt, mortgage repayments) can sometimes bring up feelings of embarrassment, inadequacy, shame or overwhelm, so people don’t talk openly about it even with their closest friends.
Aucklander Rachel*, 32, would rather talk about her sex life than her finances with friends. “It’s not like I go into details – it’s more about my libido, or ‘how many times a week?’ stuff.” But putting sex aside, she doesn’t talk about her finances, and doesn’t ask others about theirs.
“I don’t want to be nosy or seem entitled. I don’t want to offend anyone. I don’t want to complain about mortgage interest rates to someone experiencing worse financial hardship.”
When Money Talk = Judgement
Is asking others about their finances a no-no that borders on taboo? It depends. If you’re in a better financial position than a friend, you don’t want to potentially upset them. Who wants to be a downer? Who wants to talk about retirement savings or the lack thereof when you’re having a glass of wine among friends? Who wants to mention mortgage interest rates when a friend is struggling to pay rent?
Emily*, a 34-year-old administrator from Wellington, isn’t comfortable talking about finances. “It depends who I’m talking to, and how much I think they’ll judge me.” Judge her how? “I guess around impulsive spending and credit-cards debt. Or whether I earn more or less than them.”
Ava*, a 29-year-old executive assistant from Wellington, doesn’t want to admit how badly she’s paid because she wants to be valuable, feel valuable and be seen as valuable. “If people knew how little I earned, they might feel sorry for me or think I choose the wrong career. I feels I might be judged on my financial situation. Also, I’m kind of embarrassed about my lack of financial knowledge.”
Judgment is a word that crops up a lot within discussions on this topic. But personally, I think it’s more a fear of being judged, and very few others are likely to judge you.
A Feminist Lens On Money
Angela Meyer is Gender Equity Specialist at Mercer NZ – the first role of its kind in the Kiwi finance sector. She’s also co-founder/director of Project Gender (a social-change agency creating campaigns and solutions). And Ange and Rach Davies run 12-week course Hi Money, which applies “a therapeutic lens and feminist principles”. (It’s online but there are some shared Zoom meetings).
Ange and Rach interviewed hundreds of women before their first intake in September. Are women uncomfortable talking about money? “I don’t necessarily think that,” Ange says. “I think there aren’t many safe spaces for women to talk about money. People may not enjoy talking about exactly how much they earn. But I think many people value the opportunity to talk about their relationship with money.”
A study has found that 80% of women in New Zealand rate their financial wellbeing as low or very low.
“Research shows that when it comes to our relationship with money, 80% of it is about how we think and feel about money, and 20% is the tactical transactional way we deal with money. Hi Money provides a safe space for women to explore that 80%. Some women say things like ‘I don’t want to look at my account’ or ‘I’m so bad with money’.”
“We find about three-quarters of the way through the course that women are hungry for tactical financial information because they’ve become clear about what kind of relationship they want to have with money. When we start getting into the specifics, there can be interesting revelations – from some underlying money beliefs that we help reframe, to conversations like, ‘wow, you’re getting paid X amount but you should be paid x amount’.” This type of sharing is caring, especially when it comes to the gender pay gap.
Do some of us avoid talking about finances because we’re worried about offending each other? “Yeah, I think that’s because, as women, we’ve been socialised not to talk about money. The whole financial system has been built for men, and doesn’t take into account women’s childcare responsibilities or time out of the paid workforce. Also, we live in a capitalist society where so much of our self-worth is built on our work, and money is a huge marker of our success.”
A study has found that 80% of women in New Zealand rate their financial wellbeing as low or very low. “It’s atrocious,” Ange says. “Don’t we care that 80% of women are really worried about their financial well-being?.”
“So many women feel embarrassed that they don’t ‘get’ [understand] money. As women, it’s not greedy or unladylike to have agency over our relationship with money, and the ability to manage it in our best interests.”
How To Start Talking About Money
Are we so worried about the potential downsides of talking about our finances that we never have conversations that are needed for better financial health, financial equity and financial literacy? And is the notion that finances should be private actually preventing conversations about something we’d quite like to talk about?
If you’ve decided to talk about finances, how might you start a conversation? Ange says: “I probably wouldn’t go in hard by asking ‘How much do you make?’.” I’d start with a really open question: what kind of relationship would you like to have with money? Another opening gambit is ‘what’s your earliest money memory’?” Another question is ‘if your wallet could talk, what would it say?’”
Frances reckons the onus should be on the financially better-off person to start such conversations. “You could ask someone ‘are you comfortable talking about your finances and I TOTALLY understand you might not want to’.”
Another tip from Frances? “Make it a general conversation rather than talking details because people could be more comfortable with that. Or ‘take the conversation out of here and now’: for instance, ask what would that person do if they win Lotto?”
So What’s ‘Loud Budgeting?’
Has anyone else heard of the social-media financial trend this year? It’s loud budgeting. Essentially, it’s turning down social opportunities by explaining that they don’t fit your financial goals. The term was coined by Lukas Battle, a New York comedian-writer whose minute-long video went viral on TikTok.
In a New York Times story, Lukas said the term ‘loud budgeting’ can help set “financial boundaries without being uncomfortable or embarrassed. You can be like, ‘I’m not going to dinner, I’m loud budgeting this week,’ and there’s no further need for explanation.” A commenter under his video says “I WANT EVERYONE’S SPREADSHEETS.”
You probably don’t want to show people the Excel budget spreadsheet that you keep in Google Drive on your phone (though if you’d like to, great!). But you might, for instance, explain to your close friend group that you’re not going away with them this year because, for instance, you want to build a savings buffer in case you lose your job. And if people know why you’ve said no, they’re less likely to take it personally.
If you don’t want to be loud about your budget, maybe avoid the nitty-gritty of financial details, but just talk more generally about the rising cost of living and certain expenses. Because it’s something affecting most of us right now. Might talking about it actually help us feel less alone?
