Sarah Lang and the women she canvassed consider two highly aggravating gender myths: the idea that women are chaos and the viral idea that men are obsessed with The Roman Empire.
So, I’ve heard the phrase ‘order is male and chaos is female’ too many times lately in the world of popular psychology and podcasting. When I remarked on this to a (male) friend, he said to me, ‘well, isn’t that statement true of you and your husband?’. I said “Excuse me? Maybe in some ways, but not others. I get things done from a starting point of chaos in order to create order!”
For this gender myth, we can thank Jordan B Peterson, a Canadian ‘philosopher’, psychoanalyst, psychology lecturer, author, podcaster and YouTube celebrity. His exact words: that “the world is divided into two principles: order and chaos. Order is male and chaos is female”.
His book (it’s sold over 10 million copies, sigh) is called 12 Rules For Life with the subtitle An Antidote to Chaos (I’d prefer the subtitle was ‘stop being a prat’). Peterson writes that “Chaos, the eternal feminine, is also the crushing force of sexual selection. Women are choosy maters (unlike female chimps, their closest animal counterparts). It is Woman as Nature who looks at half of all men and says, ‘No!’.” Peterson’s talking about how lots of men can’t get laid.
“For the men, that’s a direct encounter with chaos, and it occurs with devastating force every time they are turned down for a date.” He believes in ‘enforced monogamy’ (socially promoted, not government mandated) so that incels don’t do antisocial and violent things. I’m not gonna get into that further here, else I’ll scream. But hey, maybe that’s just me being chaotic!
What Do Women Think About This?
I asked some women for their opinions on this.
Trish* says: “It’s blatantly obvious that Jordan Peterson uses his academic qualifications as an excuse to lash out by saying ridiculous, outdated, misogynistic nonsense.”
Joanna* says that “Peterson seems terrified of chaos, as poison – so by saying that women are chaos, he’s implying women are poison and hence an antidote to it is needed. Hence why it’s a problematic concept.” Yep.
Joanna adds that “the book What About Men by feminist writer Caitlin Moran dwells on Peterson’s comments on order/chaos. Caitlin summarises that Peterson got the idea of women being chaos from mythology, and [so she’s] insinuating that his distinction between men being order and women being chaos is a somewhat arbitrary distinction.”
If that’s the case, Jordan, hear me out: I studied classics – including Greek and Roman mythology – for five years at school then university and, FYI, the friggin male gods were the chaos. Case in point: Zeus loved ‘visiting’ (raping) and impregnating mortal women which, ya know, seems sorta chaotic to me, but the narrative focuses on how his wife, Hera, was annoyed by this. How dare she?!
Tilly* says that “the chaos thing is utter rubbish. Ludicrous. At the rate men start wars, the chaos is created by them, for them. Women rulers have far better track records at peace and stability. Women are the glue of social cohesion, and nurturers to coming generations, who ensure the world doesn’t fall apart, while Jordan Peterson pontificates.”
Lily* says that “I actually think that women are order IN the chaos, which is why female-led countries did better in the pandemic. We [women] are used to doing more than one thing at a time, and doing it well, even when everything around us is falling apart.”
Unfortunately, Peterson’s order-versus-chaos statement has gained some traction. U.S. podcaster Hannah Brown had her new fiancé Adam Woolard on her podcast recently. He said, “I love you but you’re kinda all over the place sometimes. I might ruffle some feathers here, but the masculine is usually very steady, decisive, even-keeled, whereas the feminine is operating in chaos and a lot of psychology books will affirm that”. Really, Adam? I can’t find these books and, if they do exist, they’re probably written by men.
Also, Adam, an article in forbes.com states: “Despite centuries of stereotypes, a new study finds that men are just as emotional as women. Men have the same ups and downs, highs and lows as women do… Both men and women can benefit by dumping our misguided and scientifically inaccurate ideas about gender, emotion, and rationality.”
And What’s With The Roman Empire?
Another bizarre gender myth has cropped up earlier this year: that men think about the Roman Empire a lot. This all began when Swedish social-media influencer Saskia Cort asked her followers to ask men in their lives how often they thought about the Roman Empire. Women started posting the men’s responses on social media, and this went viral, particularly on TikTok.
The New York Times article ‘Are Men Obsessed With the Roman Empire? Yes, Say Men’ said that “their [men’s responses, posted online, can be startling in their frequency. ‘Constantly,’ one husband responded. ‘Like, every day,’ said a boyfriend.”
Publications including Time and the Guardian also covered this meme-able ‘trend’. Some of their articles were likely intended as a ‘bit of fun’, but at whose expense? As a reader commented under the New York Times article: “What exactly are people trying to prove here? Seems like nothing more than bizarrely disguised misandry. Enough with the gendered generalizations.”
A New York Times follow-up article, ‘How Often Do Women Think About…?, has the standfirst: “unlike men, they definitely aren’t thinking about the Roman Empire. Their ex-best friends, space aliens and Princess Diana are more likely to be on the list”. Say what?
The article says that the Roman Empire trend has “spurred a reverse trend, where women and nonbinary people have wanted to weigh in with their own Roman Empires, loosely defined as the topics one privately contemplates more than anyone realizes.”
Comedian Natasha Vaynblat said aliens are ‘her Roman Empire’. Someone else said her ex-best friend was her Roman Empire. Someone else said hers was Princess Diana. This article will amuse some readers. But, as Molly* tells me, “speculating that women spend their time thinking about trivial things, or trivialising the things that some women like to think about, is sexist and offensive”.
So… Do Men Actually Think About The Roman Empire That Much?
I asked 12 male relations and male friends if they think about the Roman Empire a lot, and only two in 10 did – one because he studied classics.
However, as Dana Struthers asks me: “Why is the Roman Empire a more ‘superior’ or ‘worthwhile’ thought to dwell on than anything else?” Good point. In 2024, why is thinking about friendships, historical figures, and aliens (essentially, speculation about our universe) less important than thinking about the Roman Empire?
Also, even if women do think about the Roman Empire less than men, that’s probably because we’re too busy carrying the mental load to ponder Julius Caesar’s fate.
And if many men really are thinking about the Roman Empire a lot, are they thinking about the wonders of Roman aqueducts, or about how Russell Crowe in that gladiator movie?
Or is the Roman Empire a euphemism for sex?
Where Do Gender Stereotypes Actually Come From?
As described in verywellmind.com, gender stereotypes are “generalised, preconceived, and usually binary ideas about behaviours and traits specific genders should or should not display. They are based on gender norms and gender roles, and stem from unconscious bias.”
Springing from these stereotypes, some gender myths are so ingrained in our society and psyche that we may not realise how unhelpful or damaging they can be. For instance, the notion that ‘men are order and women are chaos’ lines up with other gender stereotypes like ‘men are rational and women are emotional’.
You could argue that reinforcing these gender myths – and thus the idea that men are superior and women are inferior – helps prop up the patriarchy. And the Roman empire was extremely patriarchal. Women had very few rights. “My Roman Empire is the patriarchy,” one woman tells me (joking but also not).
As Zoe* tells me: “‘you’re just being emotional’ is one of the stalwart arguments of the patriarchy. Isn’t this order-vs-chaos thing code for ‘women express emotions and I don’t like that so I’ll call that chaos to deride them for this?’.”
Cassie*, a sociologist, tells me that these two gender myths “line up with unhelpful norms, particularly to suppress women. It feels like it’s no longer okay to say ‘women can’t do xyz’ [jobs or activities], so now misogynistic men create these fake psychological reasons to uphold their beliefs of superiority.” Jordan Peterson, we’re looking at you.
Also, why assume that order is better than chaos? You could argue that order is only born from chaos; without chaos as a starting point, could you achieve order? As Yvonne* tells me, “maybe women are the chaos, but we’re also the ones who need to hold the household together, remember all the appointments and deadlines, and write a list for the desperately orderly menfolk before they can break from their trance of being a grape-fed, toga-adorned Roman senator.”
