In Part One of our chat with Ellen Joan Ford, leadership consultant and author of #WorkSchoolHours: A Revolution for Parents, Workplaces And The World, we talked about why we need change. In Part Two, we discuss how to bring about change and how #workschoolhours can work in a range of different workplaces.
Has the pandemic, which brought about more flexible, hybrid work, opened our eyes to different ways of working?
Absolutely. The silver lining of Covid is that it accelerated these conversations. I think I’m having far more success with #WorkSchoolHours now than I would had the pandemic not happened. Because it showed us we can absolutely ‘do work’ differently. But I’m also seeing that some big companies now want to revert back to how things were. And I tell them ‘that’s missing an opportunity to redefine how we do work’. So, for instance I think having people together [physically] some days is fantastic, but let’s use that time intentionally, for instance with specific meetings, not just here we all are with noise-cancelling headphones on.
Your book provides ‘research-based ammunition’ that can enable leaders within organisations to implement #WorkSchoolHours, because they’ve got the most ‘powerful lever’. For starters, you’d like to see organisations measuring outputs rather than measuring hours spent at a desk?
That’s fundamental. Let’s focus more on outputs – as in, what we actually deliver – rather than the inputs of how many hours we work. I’m not saying hours are completely irrelevant, but that they should be far less of a focus. We should ask ‘what are the outputs we want this person to deliver?’. Then you assess their performance and remunerate them based on delivering those outputs.
I feel like paying for hours as opposed to outputs is so ingrained. How do businesses make that paradigm shift?
You don’t necessarily shift your whole paradigm overnight. You have to catch yourself when you’re slipping back into the old paradigm, and that takes time and practice. Even for me – when an electrician came to my house, I had to remind myself that it wasn’t about how long he took, but that he got it done.
I imagine some organisations are sceptical of #WorkSchoolHours. What do you want them to know?
That #WorkSchoolHours isn’t a social cause, a pity push, nor a handout for parents. It’s a good business idea. It has positive impacts on productivity, [employee] retention and well-being. When flexibility and autonomy are encouraged, wellbeing, engagement and productivity increases, absenteeism decreases, and organisations retain staff for longer, avoiding costs that comes with losing organisational knowledge and [the need for new] recruitment and training.
I knew New Zealand has low productivity compared to many other countries, but I didn’t realise we have some of the longest working hours in the world!
In New Zealand, we hero worship long hours. We equate ‘work long hours’ with ‘hard worker’. When, actually, working long hours can make you fatigued, so that you don’t do as much as well. We need to work smarter not longer. #WorkSchoolHours is an opportunity to improve New Zealand’s productivity. Also, if you measure outputs as opposed to hours, it can actually help an organisation shed work that’s not of benefit.
I imagine if you feel more valued by your employer, you’re more motivated and more productive?
It’s literally this virtuous cycle of win-win.
You go into organisations to help them implement #WorkSchoolHours. Rather than telling them what to do, do you help them start the process, then they take ownership of it from there?
Yes, it’s about meeting them where they’re at, and about them taking the steps they can. Then it’s up to them whether to take it further. I might say ‘here’s some ideas’ in a presentation or a workshop. Sometimes for an organisation, I do three or four workshops over a year. I might say ‘how are things tracking, what are you learning,’ then my goal is very much to not be needed anymore! But I can’t approach every organisation in the world, so we need to get others onboard to make this an even stronger movement.
Do many organisations who understand the benefits of #WorkSchoolHours feel the implementation can be daunting?
Not as often anymore. When I started, it was ‘cool idea Ellen, but how do you do it?’. What I’ve focused on recently is ‘the doing of it’. The book and the online courses show how you can actually implement it. The first thing is talk to your team. They’re going to have great ideas. The second thing is that you don’t have to do it all in one hit. Just take some small steps and that takes away the fear. For instance, one organisation started by letting people leave at 2:30pm once a month. You could scoff at that, but people look forward to that day every month. So it’s about incremental steps. See how one goes, then progress. Find out what does and doesn’t work. Don’t give up at the first hurdle – keep experimenting until you find something that works.
I imagine you’ve heard many people say ‘Ellen, not every business can give their staff hours of 9am-3pm’.
I certainly have. All businesses are different, so #WorkSchoolHours is a set of principles, as opposed to a strict set of rules. #WorkSchoolHours is about providing malleable boundaries that allow us to create the space for both our professional and personal demands. For some organisations, applying the principles of #WorkSchoolHours could look like: work-from-home options, especially when children need unscheduled care at home – e.g., if they’re sick or have a teacher-only day. Or having project deadlines that align to the school terms. Or meetings that end before 2.30pm. Or shift workers getting the option to slide their shifts earlier or later so they can do school drop-off or pick-up.
So #WorkSchoolHours isn’t just for ‘knowledge workers’?
Absolutely not. I didn’t want this to be about making some people more privileged at the expense of others. I was really proactive in finding ways that this applies beyond knowledge workers. Our concept can be implemented in virtually any workplace, no matter the industry or how they operate currently. People across a spread of sectors have said ‘yeah this makes sense’. There are lots of case studies in the book.
You have that example of how a dairy-farm manager asked his team to come up with a way to share the week’s work according to their preferences, strengths, time constraints and other factors.
Yes. Not only did this sense of autonomy and purpose increase their engagement and performance, but the farm manager also realised he could take a week off and that everything would keep running smoothly! I’d given him some ideas in the first workshop, then came back three months later to do the second one. He said ‘I’ve implemented what you said and it’s transformed things’. And I said ‘I’ve given you the thinking but you’ve actually done it yourself with your team’.
You argue that leaders need to model changes themselves in order to normalise them for staff. So a leader might talk about what important things they have going on outside work, or block off their time in shared calendars for personal activity, or leave the office somewhat loudly?
Yes, so employees feel safe doing the same. I ran a workshop where a leader of a team said ‘I’d love to pick up my kids from school but I don’t want to seem like I’m shirking or being unfair to my team’. And the team members said ‘please do it, then we feel like you’ve really given us permission to do it too’.
Your book also lays out ways in which employees can start conversations with employers.
Yeah, while the book focuses more on organisations driving change, I didn’t want to write something that an individual might read and think ‘that’s great but I can’t do anything about this myself’. The book says ‘you’re not powerless; here are some ways you might be able to push for change’, as opposed to ‘here are tips and tricks to help you manage working in the current system’.
You lay out some useful steps, like thinking about it from your boss’s point-of-view, working out what their concerns might be and front-footing these in advance, and suggesting an experiment to be evaluated later. And maybe ask to extend the trial period if necessary, or try something different then evaluate again.
Yep. It’s important to frame the conversation well, so don’t lead with ‘things are so hard for me so I need this’. Start with ‘here’s a solution that might be win-win’.
Your book has a section on ‘Overcoming objections to #WorkSchoolHours’, including, and I’m paraphrasing, ‘how might this work for shift workers’, ‘what about what customers expect?’, ‘what if more remote working negatively affects teamwork’, ‘what if some staff take advantage’ etc, and you trouble-shoot these in advance.
Yeah, I address objections that I’ve got from people at different talks and that I think others might share. I’m not saying I’ve solved things perfectly, but hopefully people can take something useful out of that.
You mention how a woman at one of your talks got up and said ‘What about doctors? You can’t have them just leaving halfway through a surgery because they want flexibility!’
Usually there’s someone in the audience who is almost like ‘gotcha!’, smug about the fact that they’ve ‘proved’ it’s a shit idea. It’s like, of course you don’t have a surgeon walk out of surgery! At talks, I actually front-foot objections now, make a bit of a joke about it, saying to the audience ‘don’t be that person, please hear this with an open mind and think about where you could apply it’. It’s not that I don’t allow questions, but I don’t want someone to be distracted for the entire talk by waiting for a ‘gotcha’ moment.
You’ve had a big week – launching the book, launching an online course for people leaders and another for parents, and receiving a Blake Leadership Award for your work on #WorkSchoolHours!
It’s been an exciting week! It was such an honour to receive this prestigious award, and incredible to be on the same stage as Helen Clark, who received a Blake Lifetime Achievement Award. Also, it’s amazing to have #WorkSchoolHours recognised at this level. It means people can see the value in this work and in trying to change the working world. That excites me!
You’re pushing #WorkSchoolHours nationally and internationally. Do you feel hopeful about change happening?
Yes. I’m terrifyingly ambitious about changing the working world. New Zealand is my starting point, but this is absolutely going global.
www.ellenjoanford.com includes information about the book, the online course for parents and the online course for people leaders
